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Old 11-22-2002, 03:34   #16 (permalink)
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Talking


I think that's also including Fbus for new Nokia DCT4 too .

B,R
Alan
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Old 11-22-2002, 11:14   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bph&co
Very well, so how does this make using Mbus protocol illegal ?

BR
it is not "m-bus"is not a registrated name
maybe a good idea to do so ;-) you can sue them
www.m-bus.com ;-)

but true you can do whatever to the phone, it is your phone
as is also the imei from the phone.
however you may not "borrow"the imei from a other persons phone , and use it for yourself
as i sayed the firmware in the phone is yours!
it is not from nokia , nokia just made it for you to use it
however you may NOT distribute it ,
the software used in wintesla is not your or any person exept authorised by nokia
this means this software you can not just "find"on the internet
it states while booting that its nokia so dont touch it!
as for any protocall i think motorola has a patent on some sort of communication , and this is protected by them
however i think the law will not sue you if you build your own
"datasuite" or find a way to unlock it
infact if you do its YOUR copyright and you can sue others
like the police had my equipement for 4 years but had to give it back
because i made that equipment , motorola and ericsson wanted a copy of my software and use the hardware
but i did NOT give them peormission to use it
and it got barred by the police
cool those user rights no?

so basicly:

ANY form of communication you make to listen to a phone
or tell it what to do
made by your hands is your property!
as long you do NOT use their software(loaders , flashes etcetc)
to do so...

maybe someone could fill in on that protocol that motorola patented! i think it had to do with the 4308 chip "emmi"
but then again the good times consisted of buying a handsfree kit
were suprising enough had a 4308 on board ;-)
however i tryed to order 4308 form motorola
and got tons of questions back and finaly a responce that this was a custome mot chip
and was not for sale! exept for their own implementations


reg Sandor
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Old 11-22-2002, 22:15   #18 (permalink)
nab
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er2000, tdoes hat means that if nokia has NOT supplied me pheonix and dct4 flashfiles, then it is illegal for me to use the bootloaders and firmware files, that i found 'on the net...' with my afd box for flashing?
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Old 11-23-2002, 09:38   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by nab
er2000, tdoes hat means that if nokia has NOT supplied me pheonix and dct4 flashfiles, then it is illegal for me to use the bootloaders and firmware files, that i found 'on the net...' with my afd box for flashing?
yes it is

the afd does NOT come with any nokia files and or loaders or whatever
this would be in direct conflict with nokia
but then again they are scattered on the internet
its just as you would have to go to court
they will have a hard time to believe that you say
:yes but i found it on the internet so its not illegal!

well dare them and you will see

Regards

Sandor
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Old 11-23-2002, 13:19   #20 (permalink)
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Hi all

Here, in Spain, unlocking is legal with 2 conditions:

1) You can't violate any patent or copyright (i.e. using protected software, as Wintesla, Emma II and so on, but you can use any free soft or pay soft from unlockers)

2) As long as the phone is property of the unlocker or of the customer. I mean, that here is not legal to unlock any phone that is not right property of the customer. It is this way, because there are some contracts that establishes that the phone is not buyed from the customer, it's just rented without costs to the customer as long as the customer is subscribed for a year. So, in that cases it is illegal to unlock the phone, 'cos it remains property of the operator until a year passes form the signing date of the contract.

The point is: why it is legal (accomplishing the 2 conditions)?

The point of view of the spanish law is that:

1) The phone, in origin by the concept of the manufacturer, is unlocked.
2) The phone is locked by request of the operator.
3) The operator locks the phone as a measure to avoid competition
4) Once the customer buys the phone, it is of his property.
5) There are conditions from the operator and the manufacturer, so the customer knows that any non official modification can abort the warranty of the phone and of the sim card and service
6) It is ridicule pretend that unlocking is illegal, 'cos the owner of a phone can do with it whatever he wants (unlocking, breaking, etc)
7) And finally:
"...therefore, we see this:
A) If the customer breaks the conditions of the operator for giving the service, the operator can stop giving that service.
B) If the customer breaks the conditions of the manufacturer for having product warranty, the manufacturer can stop supporting the product warranty.
So, it is clear to see that, if the customer wants to use the phone without observing the amount of requests, the customer can do this knowing that all support from the companies inovolved in that process will be denied.
So, if we must punish the modification of the phone done or ordered by the owner, we must punish also the beahviour of the owner of a car that replaces the wheel tires in another place than the official center, and we must punish the freedom of private property.
So, now, by all this facts, we state that:
1) We can't punish the no acceptation of conditions proposed by a manufacturer or service provider bases on the fun*****tal and basics rights of this democratic State of Law.
2) We refuse the requests and proposals made in this judicial act by the operator Telefonica Moviles de Espaņa and the manufacturers Nokia, Ericsson, Motorola and Alcatel, and deny any of the terms presented by them.
As a final quote, we affirm:
The intentions of the demandants appears to us as one of the most anti-democratic, monopolistic, and aberrant merchantilists practices we have ever known. Make this sentence avoid future cases in this way."

This is the final part of a sentence in a case presente by an operator and various manufacturer here in Spain against a group of unlockers.

Sorry for its extension, but I think that is a right point of view, don't you think so?

Regards,


Nylus.
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Old 11-23-2002, 13:26   #21 (permalink)
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Oh, I forgot to say that here there is not a specific legislation about unlocking, but it is used analogy for this subjetc.

And IMEI changing is illegal, because is illegal to change the serial number of any product without the consent of the manufacturer or an authorization of the manufacturer or the administrative authorities.

Regards,


Nylus.
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Old 11-23-2002, 15:13   #22 (permalink)
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Hi,

Well nab, to continue with your hobby with 100 % legal way, seems
you have only 2 choices:

1. Apply for Authorised Nokia Service center. You will get all
legal approval from Nokia, you can get best support and downloads.
Few bad points though:
a. Maybe you have to sell your house to
cover all expences needed to meet their requirements.
b. Maybe you still have to do illegal things - like claiming
guarantee repairs on non existing phones or similar tricks in order
to servive( like a lot of people do)

2. Buy Neelix and as er2000 said, he found some clever way to
go around this so probably you won't have any legal
problems.

/*******************

About how legal is the companies to lock their phones.

Let's put it simple. The organization regulating consumer - manifacturer/retailer relationships is called Trading Standarts.

By one of they rules you can't sell something with False advertisment on the packaging of the product.

So let's imagine the next scenario:

Assume you are ordinary guy ( customer ), not specialist in electronics. So you have heard from friends or watch on a TV
about the very nice new phone from Nokia - 6610.

The same time you know about 3 - 4 more phones that are very
nice too - Ericsson, Panasonic and so on...

But you decide to check it out - so where you are going to go,
this is Nokia phone you don't go to Nike website, you go to
visit www.nokia.com.

After litle search you can read this on the first line of the phone
features:

"Phone Features

Tri-band world phone - works in three networks on five continents "

(http://www.nokia.com/nokia/0,5184,789,00.html)

So next day you go to the local CPW and make you contract and
got your nice handset.

Well lets think what make us to buy ? Packaging yes !
It is simple when you go there and see the nice box with a smell
of factory and the nice phone inside, that's it , you're
done

So you go home charge your phone and start using it and what
happend when you decide to use your phone on 3 networks or five continents ?

Did they warn you before you pay that they sell you a faulty handsets ? Did you buy this phone becuase of the adverts on the
TV and Internet and because of the nice features it has ?

So everything they do is in breach of Trading Standarts rules.

I think selling locked handsets will be legal only if the companies
put a big sticker on the boxes and in they catalogues:

"PLEASE NOTE: THIS PRODUCT IS NOT THE ADVERTISED ON THE
TV AND IS SOLD IN FAULTY CONDITION. ALTHOUGH THERE IS NO
PROBLEM FOR YOU TO USE IT ON OUR NETWORK WITH LIMITED
FEATURES"

And if you think this is too hard lets assume second scenario:

You are very good engineer and have mobile phone shop.
You decide to sell a phone to the shop customers below cost, just
to fix your balance or whatever. The only way to do it by removing some parts of the phone and selling them separate.

So you decide to take off the BT module because no one need that anyway. You can cover the loss of sales by using the BT
modules in the phones you have for repair and still make profit.

So what will happen when the customer bring the phone he
bought from you to another place to check it out. What will
happen when Trading Standarts come to check you out ?

I think everyone knows the answer.

Do you feel both scenarios are close ?

And why you small business owner can't do this, but big businesses can pull it off with such a scam ?


Best Regards
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Old 08-03-2022, 09:53   #23 (permalink)
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If there is no trademark, there may be problems in the future.
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