Nvidia GPU chip problem - Page 12 - GSM-Forum

Dan Collins · 05-17-2011, 15:26

geniusmiki, let me clarify, I preheat to 150C for lead free and to 130C for leaded. And no this does not affect the board as long as you achive this temp in under 4 minutes. This preheat temp allows the solder to liqiuify at the pad better causing less pad lifting. I have done hundreds of boards this way and have yet to have an issue. The boards when finished do not have any signs of overheating such as discoloration.

Bekim_OB, I try to keep peak at max 220C for leaded and start the fan cooling at 165C. That is when the solder starts to harden and it is best to cool off at that point as quickly as possible. I didn't make this stuff up, it all explained in the IPC/JEDEC Reflow Standards. Google J-STD-020D

sanddog · 05-18-2011, 04:19

Hi all i just found this Forums doing a search for copper mod and I do repair and building of computers but not any reflowing but have did the copper pad mod on my personal dv9720us with the 7150 gpu run quite cool and never has had the video problems on a torture test stays under 60c on the gpu and the cpu both and i run a cooler under it from time to time no gaming. Used Artic Silver on the mod and replaced the fan because it was clicking when on high, but ran into quite a few with the video problem and declined fixing those units. Lots of info on these forums.

Dan Collins · 05-19-2011, 18:26

Sanddog, you are one of the lucky ones. The copper shim has to be the perfect thickness and the CPU has to not generate excessive heat. But most use a generic shim and the CPU is already generating too much heat causing the first issue. If the CPU runs hot, the shim will not work. What everyone seems to not understand is the CPU causes most of the overheating, not the GPU. The GPU can run hotter if stressed by high graphic apps just adding to the problem, but the heat absorbed by the copper shim has no where to go due to the poor cooling system airflow so the heat just feeds back to the GPU causing more stress on it. If the GPU was the overheating culprit then it would burn out and reflows would be futile.
Now this senerio really applies to the G6150/7150. The G86/Go7xxx series does not require a shim because the heatsink has no gap. Just use silver thermal paste on them. Refering to the HP laptops only.

ITMAN142 · 05-20-2011, 03:55

my working experience in click here

koko224 · 05-26-2011, 11:52

What's peoples thoughts on the methods of applying flux to the chip before removal.

Do you use a mixture of liquid flux and flux paste or just flux paste?

If just paste is being used how do you get the paste right the way under the BGA.

If just using liquid flux does this work or does the liquid burn off before 217C making it useless for removing a BGA.

I'm still having issues with some BGA removal where even at 240C the chip will not move from the board, while other BGA's will remove without any problems at 217C. I'm thinking that it may have something to do with the flux, but not sure

Any thoughts?

Dan Collins · 05-27-2011, 16:43

Adding flux to a BGA for removal is required, not an option. The more liquid it is the better. Not possible to get paste under a BGA. And it doesn't 'burn off'. When reapplying, paste is better because it holds the part in place. And most important, very lightly on the flux paste or the part will float.
If you apply sufficient flux and part will not remove then either there are cold spots on the corners, or there is epoxy under the chip.
If the BGA is larger than 26mm then the Jovy doesn't work very well. The preheat area is not big enough.

My other suggestion, for the larger chips and epoxyed ones, is to get the board closer to the lower heater and let it heat to 150-160C before appling upper heat. I have cut the legs of my board holder and have installed adjustible legs for this very reason. Also makes it easier to level the board so the flux doesn't run off.

Halim_xu · 05-28-2011, 06:34

Hi All

i just fix a hp tx1000 with a new chip Nvidia NF-G6150-N-A2, the GPU temp would shoot up to 90 degrees by GPU-Z just in a few minutes without running game or any software in it. i notice that the ****ed air from inside is so hot..i just put a thermal pad ( no copper shim) and apply thermal paste TG-2 by thermaltake.
any idea how to reduce the heat beside using cooling pad?thank you

geniusmiki · 05-29-2011, 10:11

can someone how i can mod the termocouple of jovy to get better precision?

i reach 240 C and chip don't move. i have destroyed all pads, because i have forced removing thinking it was expoxy....

thanks

Jovy_User · 05-29-2011, 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by geniusmiki

can someone how i can mod the termocouple of jovy to get better precision?

i reach 240 C and chip don't move. i have destroyed all pads, because i have forced removing thinking it was expoxy....

thanks

The epoxy that holds the chip down can be frustrating, this is if you haven't learned how to remove it. 240C is definitely in the region of chip destruction, I would never recommend that the Jovy runs over 230C, even at this temperature it is easily capable of destroying chips. If you are using the standard thermocouple and the Jovy read 240C, you were probably 10C to 15C higher in temperature!

Did you see the document from Jovy detailing the way to bend the thermocouple?

When I used to use the standard Jovy thermcouple, the temperatures were not accurate, I eventually changed the thermocouple and I am reading tempertures that are now on average 2C from the real tempertures.

Finally, If you're a new jovy user I would suggest that you experiment. Get boards that you know dont work. You have to practise with the temperatures. Visit all of your local computer repair shops and ask them for motherboards that they are going to throw away. I would be suprised if all of them didn't have at least 1 motherboard that they didn't need! You may be lucky and get a whole box full that you can learn from, and maybe make some money from.

Good Luck!

Halim_xu · 05-29-2011, 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by geniusmiki

can someone how i can mod the termocouple of jovy to get better precision?

i reach 240 C and chip don't move. i have destroyed all pads, because i have forced removing thinking it was expoxy....

thanks

Hi, Geniusmiki,
sound it's hurt..pls make sure all the epoxy glued beside and under the ic already removed,.i usually use ****er to heat the epoxy slowly and use a toothpick to take it away part by part..but becarefull don't force it too much..then use a magnifying glass to see all the epoxy attached to it are definetly removed..after that you no need to worry about it again in removing the ic..
240c is certainly too high,..all my practical ic was popcorned at this temp..you can try to touch the ic smoothly with a tweezer when the temp raise up about 200c for lead free, and 175 for leaded. once the ic is move, then that's the time you can take it out..hope this will help...

Dan Collins · 05-29-2011, 21:47

Halim - replace the CPU, it is generating to much heat.

geniusmiki - most of the epoxy must be removed. The epoxy will cause pad lifting. Follow TC bending example by Jovy. I use a second TC to monitor temps. Never lift the chip until it can move freely. Test by pushing and tapping BGA. This process takes a lot of time and patience. Took me 2 years to get it right.

Halim_xu · 05-30-2011, 05:44

[QUOTE=Dan Collins;7376419]Halim - replace the CPU, it is generating to much heat.

Hi Dan Collins,
thanks for your idea, i'm going to try it..but how cpu produce so much heat that cause the effect to bga chip as they r running togeher, who exactly produce the most heat? BGA chip or CPu? beside this point, i see some suggest to upgrade the bios for this heat issue..,what exactly the benefit and the effect to upgrade it?,,the bios version for this HP Tx1000 now is Phonix Ver F.18 with Vista OS installed, any idea how to upgrade it? i'm going to try it too.. Thank you..n good luck for you

Trion · 05-30-2011, 17:19

As Dan Collins suggests, getting the copper shim thickness right is important. I use 2 pices of 1mm thickness with good thermal paste(like arctic silver/ cermaic) sandwiched between and paste above and below the sandwich. I have done many boards and have learnt my machine shows around 10-14 degrees lower than actual temperature of the chip while reflowing, so i use an infrared thermometer. I have several Hp DV2000, 6000 series, besides Acer, Dell and other brands using Nvidia GPUs running over a year with no problems. I generally get around 3-4 a week for repairs. Some occasional ones are like miniature volcanoes and need GPUs replaced.
I was on vacation. Will check the next few laptops that come to test what Dan says about the GPUs overheating. I agree with him that in HP and some other laptops the cooling solution is inadequate. I've seen this in many brands and looks like NVIDIA suggested it to the laptop manufacturers.
Good GPUs with lead based solder balls and with proper thermal paste and good thermal pads/copper shims give no problems provided the GPU gets the right voltage. In rare cases the GPU gets higher voltage thus running at a very high temperature. Pentu too can confirm this as he's seen this in laptops coming to him for repairs.

@ Halim Xu,

Either that GPU is bad or the voltage regulator IC supplying the GPU is giving higher voltage. This is assuming you have used good paste and a good thermal pad or copper shim of correct thickness. BIOS updates are available on the HP website. Most of them just make the fan run all the time thus keeping the GPU cool.

Dan Collins · 05-30-2011, 19:06

Trion is correct to halim.
I have found the CPU, not the GPU creates the most heat. If it was the GPU, then they would have a higher failure rate. The fact we can just reflow them suggests that they are getting the heat but not creating it. Yes the GPU creates heat, but when the CPU has too much heat then the flow of heat disappation is reduced thus causing the excessive heat to the BGA's. That is why you seldom see the Nvidia fail on the Intel based boards. Intels CPU's don't generate as much heat as the AMD CPU's.
And from my testing, it seems they get hotter with usage. And when the airflow gets reduced it takes a toll on the CPU and it seems to generate more heat after it has been compromised with reduced heat dissapation.

Halim_xu · 06-11-2011, 07:14

hi all,

i just upgrade bios for hp tx1000, seems there is nothing change, the fan still run as usual, not as we know it will **** continously, i've check the bios but i cannot find " fan always on " utility.
i upgrade it from Ver.F.18 to latest on F.20.any idea pls...thank you

05-26-2011, 11:52	#170 (permalink)
koko224 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 3 Member: 1463540 Status: Offline Thanks Meter: 0	BGA Removal. Flux types and techniques What's peoples thoughts on the methods of applying flux to the chip before removal. Do you use a mixture of liquid flux and flux paste or just flux paste? If just paste is being used how do you get the paste right the way under the BGA. If just using liquid flux does this work or does the liquid burn off before 217C making it useless for removing a BGA. I'm still having issues with some BGA removal where even at 240C the chip will not move from the board, while other BGA's will remove without any problems at 217C. I'm thinking that it may have something to do with the flux, but not sure Any thoughts?

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05-17-2011, 15:26	#166 (permalink)
Dan Collins Freak Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 210 Member: 437621 Status: Offline Thanks Meter: 19	geniusmiki, let me clarify, I preheat to 150C for lead free and to 130C for leaded. And no this does not affect the board as long as you achive this temp in under 4 minutes. This preheat temp allows the solder to liqiuify at the pad better causing less pad lifting. I have done hundreds of boards this way and have yet to have an issue. The boards when finished do not have any signs of overheating such as discoloration. Bekim_OB, I try to keep peak at max 220C for leaded and start the fan cooling at 165C. That is when the solder starts to harden and it is best to cool off at that point as quickly as possible. I didn't make this stuff up, it all explained in the IPC/JEDEC Reflow Standards. Google J-STD-020D

05-18-2011, 04:19	#167 (permalink)
sanddog Junior Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 1 Member: 1579086 Status: Offline Thanks Meter: 0	Hi all i just found this Forums doing a search for copper mod and I do repair and building of computers but not any reflowing but have did the copper pad mod on my personal dv9720us with the 7150 gpu run quite cool and never has had the video problems on a torture test stays under 60c on the gpu and the cpu both and i run a cooler under it from time to time no gaming. Used Artic Silver on the mod and replaced the fan because it was clicking when on high, but ran into quite a few with the video problem and declined fixing those units. Lots of info on these forums.

05-19-2011, 18:26	#168 (permalink)
Dan Collins Freak Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 210 Member: 437621 Status: Offline Thanks Meter: 19	Sanddog, you are one of the lucky ones. The copper shim has to be the perfect thickness and the CPU has to not generate excessive heat. But most use a generic shim and the CPU is already generating too much heat causing the first issue. If the CPU runs hot, the shim will not work. What everyone seems to not understand is the CPU causes most of the overheating, not the GPU. The GPU can run hotter if stressed by high graphic apps just adding to the problem, but the heat absorbed by the copper shim has no where to go due to the poor cooling system airflow so the heat just feeds back to the GPU causing more stress on it. If the GPU was the overheating culprit then it would burn out and reflows would be futile. Now this senerio really applies to the G6150/7150. The G86/Go7xxx series does not require a shim because the heatsink has no gap. Just use silver thermal paste on them. Refering to the HP laptops only.

05-20-2011, 03:55	#169 (permalink)
ITMAN142 Freak Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: pk Posts: 122 Member: 1565811 Status: Offline Sonork: 786 Thanks Meter: 8	my working experience in click here

05-27-2011, 16:43	#171 (permalink)
Dan Collins Freak Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 210 Member: 437621 Status: Offline Thanks Meter: 19	Adding flux to a BGA for removal is required, not an option. The more liquid it is the better. Not possible to get paste under a BGA. And it doesn't 'burn off'. When reapplying, paste is better because it holds the part in place. And most important, very lightly on the flux paste or the part will float. If you apply sufficient flux and part will not remove then either there are cold spots on the corners, or there is epoxy under the chip. If the BGA is larger than 26mm then the Jovy doesn't work very well. The preheat area is not big enough. My other suggestion, for the larger chips and epoxyed ones, is to get the board closer to the lower heater and let it heat to 150-160C before appling upper heat. I have cut the legs of my board holder and have installed adjustible legs for this very reason. Also makes it easier to level the board so the flux doesn't run off.

05-28-2011, 06:34	#172 (permalink)
Halim_xu Crazy Poster Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 50 Member: 1481034 Status: Offline Sonork: Halim_Xu Thanks Meter: 3	Hi All i just fix a hp tx1000 with a new chip Nvidia NF-G6150-N-A2, the GPU temp would shoot up to 90 degrees by GPU-Z just in a few minutes without running game or any software in it. i notice that the ****ed air from inside is so hot..i just put a thermal pad ( no copper shim) and apply thermal paste TG-2 by thermaltake. any idea how to reduce the heat beside using cooling pad?thank you

05-29-2011, 10:11	#173 (permalink)
geniusmiki Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 11 Member: 1360552 Status: Offline Thanks Meter: 0	can someone how i can mod the termocouple of jovy to get better precision? i reach 240 C and chip don't move. i have destroyed all pads, because i have forced removing thinking it was expoxy.... thanks

05-29-2011, 21:47	#176 (permalink)
Dan Collins Freak Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 210 Member: 437621 Status: Offline Thanks Meter: 19	Halim - replace the CPU, it is generating to much heat. geniusmiki - most of the epoxy must be removed. The epoxy will cause pad lifting. Follow TC bending example by Jovy. I use a second TC to monitor temps. Never lift the chip until it can move freely. Test by pushing and tapping BGA. This process takes a lot of time and patience. Took me 2 years to get it right.

05-30-2011, 05:44	#177 (permalink)
Halim_xu Crazy Poster Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 50 Member: 1481034 Status: Offline Sonork: Halim_Xu Thanks Meter: 3	[QUOTE=Dan Collins;7376419]Halim - replace the CPU, it is generating to much heat. Hi Dan Collins, thanks for your idea, i'm going to try it..but how cpu produce so much heat that cause the effect to bga chip as they r running togeher, who exactly produce the most heat? BGA chip or CPu? beside this point, i see some suggest to upgrade the bios for this heat issue..,what exactly the benefit and the effect to upgrade it?,,the bios version for this HP Tx1000 now is Phonix Ver F.18 with Vista OS installed, any idea how to upgrade it? i'm going to try it too.. Thank you..n good luck for you

05-30-2011, 17:19	#178 (permalink)
Trion Freak Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 370 Member: 44625 Status: Offline Thanks Meter: 36	As Dan Collins suggests, getting the copper shim thickness right is important. I use 2 pices of 1mm thickness with good thermal paste(like arctic silver/ cermaic) sandwiched between and paste above and below the sandwich. I have done many boards and have learnt my machine shows around 10-14 degrees lower than actual temperature of the chip while reflowing, so i use an infrared thermometer. I have several Hp DV2000, 6000 series, besides Acer, Dell and other brands using Nvidia GPUs running over a year with no problems. I generally get around 3-4 a week for repairs. Some occasional ones are like miniature volcanoes and need GPUs replaced. I was on vacation. Will check the next few laptops that come to test what Dan says about the GPUs overheating. I agree with him that in HP and some other laptops the cooling solution is inadequate. I've seen this in many brands and looks like NVIDIA suggested it to the laptop manufacturers. Good GPUs with lead based solder balls and with proper thermal paste and good thermal pads/copper shims give no problems provided the GPU gets the right voltage. In rare cases the GPU gets higher voltage thus running at a very high temperature. Pentu too can confirm this as he's seen this in laptops coming to him for repairs. @ Halim Xu, Either that GPU is bad or the voltage regulator IC supplying the GPU is giving higher voltage. This is assuming you have used good paste and a good thermal pad or copper shim of correct thickness. BIOS updates are available on the HP website. Most of them just make the fan run all the time thus keeping the GPU cool.

05-30-2011, 19:06	#179 (permalink)
Dan Collins Freak Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 210 Member: 437621 Status: Offline Thanks Meter: 19	Trion is correct to halim. I have found the CPU, not the GPU creates the most heat. If it was the GPU, then they would have a higher failure rate. The fact we can just reflow them suggests that they are getting the heat but not creating it. Yes the GPU creates heat, but when the CPU has too much heat then the flow of heat disappation is reduced thus causing the excessive heat to the BGA's. That is why you seldom see the Nvidia fail on the Intel based boards. Intels CPU's don't generate as much heat as the AMD CPU's. And from my testing, it seems they get hotter with usage. And when the airflow gets reduced it takes a toll on the CPU and it seems to generate more heat after it has been compromised with reduced heat dissapation.

06-11-2011, 07:14	#180 (permalink)
Halim_xu Crazy Poster Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 50 Member: 1481034 Status: Offline Sonork: Halim_Xu Thanks Meter: 3	hi all, i just upgrade bios for hp tx1000, seems there is nothing change, the fan still run as usual, not as we know it will **** continously, i've check the bios but i cannot find " fan always on " utility. i upgrade it from Ver.F.18 to latest on F.20.any idea pls...thank you