Nvidia GPU chip problem - Page 8 - GSM-Forum

Halim_xu · 01-13-2011, 14:25

hi Dan,

selecting a nozzle for heating a bga chip is important too, do you use a right nozzle size for heat your bga chip? i mean if the nozzle is too bigger or smaller than chip.,then the heating process to chip would not get the best result, that's why some chip we heated with temp required seems still holding the position steady when we try to take out..,
btw, anybody has ever face the problem of reballing bga chip with solder ball? sometimes in heating process for melding the bga balls, i noticed some balls are trying to joint together even they are standing on their own position on each bga pads, for the first i think i've put to much flux on the chip before i set the balls with stencil, but it still same after i put less on it, some balls still move and joint together when reaching the temp for melding and i've to seperate them one by one

..anybody experience with this pls share with us..thank you all..

monitron · 01-13-2011, 22:08

Hi all,

I am following this thread with many interest. However i am reballing notebooks and xboxes for one year now i certainly learned from you all.

What i am missing in the requirements for a prober reball is the following:

Use a proper support for the board. Larger boards must be fixed so that they are completely flat. If not you won't get a prober reflow after reballing. Jovy has a support for larger boards. Even more important with the xboxes.

Then a question:

Who cleans the chip after reballing? I tried both: cleaning the chip after reballing with IPA and i didn't clean it, there is not much flux left afterall. Like to hear what you pro's do.

I use the Jovy 7500 and use no direct heat stencils but the 90x90 reball station. It works fabulous. Most reballs succeed in one try.

Halim_xu · 01-14-2011, 06:06

Hi all,
anybody know why after reballing process from heating , reballing and soldering back bga chip to board seems everything is running well, then testing to power on the laptop ,it wouldn't power on and there is no power led, only charging led indicator showed in charging battery. did i burn some ic out that cause board demage when heating and soldering process by the machine? i notice there are many small ic like capacitor and others stand close to bga chip.

i use zhoumao zm-r5860c.
i tried to reball Nvidia MCP67MV-A2 on acer aspire 4520 with leadfree temp as the company profile suggested..thanks

monitron · 01-14-2011, 14:35

This is a difficult chip to reball because of the low pitch and the 05mm balls. It has many functions integrated and when you have balls that have bridged or balls that didn't reflow correctly, in many cases the laptop won't start or switches on and after two seconds off.

It could be that you touched a part that is near the bga and has moved. Look carefully.

If not and you are careful with the max temp. you can take the chip off and try again.

If you have not to much experience with reballing, it is better to start with GPU's that have .6mm balls.

Halim_xu · 01-15-2011, 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by monitron

This is a difficult chip to reball because of the low pitch and the 05mm balls. It has many functions integrated and when you have balls that have bridged or balls that didn't reflow correctly, in many cases the laptop won't start or switches on and after two seconds off.

It could be that you touched a part that is near the bga and has moved. Look carefully.

If not and you are careful with the max temp. you can take the chip off and try again.

If you have not to much experience with reballing, it is better to start with GPU's that have .6mm balls.

Hi,Monitron

Thank you for your great idea..,after checking the board carefully, i found there is one small capasitor " PC102 " near by the gpu chip is getting hot when i push down power button even there is nothing appear., then i tried to change it with the same one, but it's useless, the problm stills same..
seems i've to try to reball it again.,and i just take a look for the gpu chip carefully, i can see some pop corn on the chip ( just like some groups of air wanna show up from the green area of the chip ),,how could it be? is that the problem?,,is it mean the chip already demage?
i use lead balls not lead free balls to reballed the chip as i got information from the seller that there is no problem for using lead balls to subtitute for a lead free one )is it true?? and i just find out this Nvidia MCP67MV-A2 gpu chip is using lead free balls..

monitron · 01-15-2011, 16:51

Hi,

When the chip has popcorn it is useless and you have to replace it with an new one. You can buy them on Ebay.

The popcorn appears when you overheat the chip (220-225 deg C max), or when your ramp-up is more then 2-3 deg C per second.

It is always better to use leaded balls. The solder is more resistant against thermal and mechanical stress and you don't have to heat the chip higher then 175 - 175 deg C.

I cannot see from a distance what the problem is with your board but what you know is that you reballed and reflowed the chip. So you have to look in that direction.

Did you use hot-air or Infrared ?

Trion · 01-15-2011, 19:25

@monitron,

You have provided the correct info. I'd like to add that very few people have a good success rate with reballing/reflowing the NVIDIA MCP IC. This is mostly used in Acer 4520 laptops and most of them fail. Even the best people in rework that i know face problems with this chip.

B.R.

monitron · 01-16-2011, 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by monitron

Then a question:

Who cleans the chip after reballing? I tried both: cleaning the chip after reballing with IPA and i didn't clean it, there is not much flux left afterall. Like to hear what you pro's do.

No users who can give me their experience with cleaning after reballing?

Halim_xu · 01-18-2011, 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by monitron

Hi,

When the chip has popcorn it is useless and you have to replace it with an new one. You can buy them on Ebay.

The popcorn appears when you overheat the chip (220-225 deg C max), or when your ramp-up is more then 2-3 deg C per second.

It is always better to use leaded balls. The solder is more resistant against thermal and mechanical stress and you don't have to heat the chip higher then 175 - 175 deg C.

I cannot see from a distance what the problem is with your board but what you know is that you reballed and reflowed the chip. So you have to look in that direction.

Did you use hot-air or Infrared ?

Hi..Monitron,

below is the lead free temp profile suggested from my seller that i used for desoldering my Nvidia MCP67MV-A2 chip till it showed me some popcorn on it,

i use Zm-R5860c BGA reworkstation from china, it has top heater and bottom heater also infrared,..
FOR TOP HEATER:
PREHATING1 : rises 165 deg C in 30 seconds at a speed of 3 deg C/secs, PREHEATING2 : 165 to 190 deg C in 30 secs at a speed of 3 deg C/secs,
ACTIVATION :190 to 220 deg C in 35 secs at a speed of 3 deg C/secs,
SOLDERING1 :220 to 240 deg C in 40 secs at a speed of 3 deg C/secs,
SOLDERING2 :240 to 245 deg C in 20 secs at a speed of 3 deg C/secs,
AND COOLING :245 to 235 deg C in 15 secs at a speed of 3 deg C/secs

FOR BOTTOM HEATER : same with top heater temp
Irda : 210 deg C.

all these temperature can be setted manually , and programed by the machine, so the process is started from prehating1&2, activation, soldering1&2 and cooling continouesly,
I think the ic cannot stand in soldering 1&2 process that cause some popcorn showed up...and may be i use no flux>>>thank you...

monitron · 01-19-2011, 19:27

245 deg is really too high. For desoldering you can touch the bga with a tweezer when the temp is around 210 degrees. Push very soft until all the sides of the bga can move. Then remember the temp and adjust your profile. As soon as the chip is moving at all sides stop the process and start cooling. There is no need to let the temperature go higher as needed.

A little flux can help. Use good flux because bad flux (like the fake amtech) can cause corrosion on the pads and that can make the reflow process fail.

Reworking is like learning to walk all over again. You have to get used to your machine and get the feeling. It took me about one year and i learn every day.

I don't use profiles but i operate the heaters manually. I use the software of the Jovy to plot a temperature curve.

Practice on old boards, and write down what happens and then you make your own settings.

ShadowmanX · 01-19-2011, 21:08

No one "CHINA POWER killing chichuachua chiow chiow ayouououue" mashine canno't corectly solder/desolder chip

U can reach temperature soldering/desoldering profile near to true.. but U never can repeat it on the same board

1) better look into some tools at price about 24k GBP or 29k EUR - it is nearest true

2) If U do not change broken chip - Your work is vain...
3) If chip's connection broken and U cannot resolder it correctly - Your work is vain...
4) If U do not resolve cooling and mechanical problem - Your work is vain...

but U allways can do more cheaper than china sh.it and without knowledge about soldering "preheating, soak, reflow" :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRHsXiRfl84

Good luck

ShadowmanX · 01-19-2011, 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by monitron

245 deg is really too high. For desoldering you can touch the bga with a tweezer when the temp is around 210 degrees. Push very soft until all the sides of the bga can move. Then remember the temp and adjust your profile. As soon as the chip is moving at all sides stop the process and start cooling. There is no need to let the temperature go higher as needed.

A little flux can help. Use good flux because bad flux (like the fake amtech) can cause corrosion on the pads and that can make the reflow process fail.

Reworking is like learning to walk all over again. You have to get used to your machine and get the feeling. It took me about one year and i learn every day.

I don't use profiles but i operate the heaters manually. I use the software of the Jovy to plot a temperature curve.

Practice on old boards, and write down what happens and then you make your own settings.

did U ever know about solder chemistry and liquid temperature ? Do U understand how is manufactured CHIP ? If - no , than - U soldering with "weather-forecast curve"

Halim_xu · 01-20-2011, 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by monitron

245 deg is really too high. For desoldering you can touch the bga with a tweezer when the temp is around 210 degrees. Push very soft until all the sides of the bga can move. Then remember the temp and adjust your profile. As soon as the chip is moving at all sides stop the process and start cooling. There is no need to let the temperature go higher as needed.

A little flux can help. Use good flux because bad flux (like the fake amtech) can cause corrosion on the pads and that can make the reflow process fail.

Reworking is like learning to walk all over again. You have to get used to your machine and get the feeling. It took me about one year and i learn every day.

I don't use profiles but i operate the heaters manually. I use the software of the Jovy to plot a temperature curve.

Practice on old boards, and write down what happens and then you make your own settings.

Hi Mr.Monitron,

i really like to thank for your great ideas and tips that really help me in knowing more about bga's rework and reball process..
Spending for one year to learn these all seems too long, but i realize this is how you work and it must give you a lot of experiences..'coz it's all real , " NO PAIN NO GAIN " ...
i just start working with the machine for 3 weeks and seems so long with some fail tested boards aside...i've to learn from you to be patient and practice more from basic and being just like a friend with the machine & put some feeling in working process, but non for one year..

Now i'm trying to desoldering Nvidia NF GO7200 gpu chipset on Compaq V3000 laptop and feels more fair with the smaller gpu chipset than the MCP67MV-A2 and it comes with a lot of closed ic and socket in it,
how to make sure all ic and socket( for processor )will still in good condition after the board being heated? any suggestions on this please...thank you.

monitron · 01-20-2011, 15:00

You can cover the parts that are near the GPU with kapton tape. Some people use aluminimum foil tape to protect other parts. More important is that you never exeed the max temp for that bga. (around 220 deg C).

Good luck with practicing

Nicpoe · 01-22-2011, 08:56

Look here, very interesting: YouTube - Reviving a Dead DELL Laptop with no Graphics (with Reballing service)

But read the comments carefully. One user say that the chip is the problem, not the solder balls. And it's the second time i hear this. There are chips (manufactured 2008 and later) that are fixed. But where can I get those chips from nvidia. What Time code on the chip gives me the info about manufacturing date?

Many of my fixed laptops fails after 1-4 Months again.

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01-13-2011, 14:25	#106 (permalink)
Halim_xu Crazy Poster Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 50 Member: 1481034 Status: Offline Sonork: Halim_Xu Thanks Meter: 3	hi Dan, selecting a nozzle for heating a bga chip is important too, do you use a right nozzle size for heat your bga chip? i mean if the nozzle is too bigger or smaller than chip.,then the heating process to chip would not get the best result, that's why some chip we heated with temp required seems still holding the position steady when we try to take out.., btw, anybody has ever face the problem of reballing bga chip with solder ball? sometimes in heating process for melding the bga balls, i noticed some balls are trying to joint together even they are standing on their own position on each bga pads, for the first i think i've put to much flux on the chip before i set the balls with stencil, but it still same after i put less on it, some balls still move and joint together when reaching the temp for melding and i've to seperate them one by one ..anybody experience with this pls share with us..thank you all..

01-13-2011, 22:08	#107 (permalink)
monitron Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Netherlands Posts: 36 Member: 1242964 Status: Offline Thanks Meter: 5	Hi all, I am following this thread with many interest. However i am reballing notebooks and xboxes for one year now i certainly learned from you all. What i am missing in the requirements for a prober reball is the following: Use a proper support for the board. Larger boards must be fixed so that they are completely flat. If not you won't get a prober reflow after reballing. Jovy has a support for larger boards. Even more important with the xboxes. Then a question: Who cleans the chip after reballing? I tried both: cleaning the chip after reballing with IPA and i didn't clean it, there is not much flux left afterall. Like to hear what you pro's do. I use the Jovy 7500 and use no direct heat stencils but the 90x90 reball station. It works fabulous. Most reballs succeed in one try.

01-14-2011, 06:06	#108 (permalink)
Halim_xu Crazy Poster Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 50 Member: 1481034 Status: Offline Sonork: Halim_Xu Thanks Meter: 3	Hi all, anybody know why after reballing process from heating , reballing and soldering back bga chip to board seems everything is running well, then testing to power on the laptop ,it wouldn't power on and there is no power led, only charging led indicator showed in charging battery. did i burn some ic out that cause board demage when heating and soldering process by the machine? i notice there are many small ic like capacitor and others stand close to bga chip. i use zhoumao zm-r5860c. i tried to reball Nvidia MCP67MV-A2 on acer aspire 4520 with leadfree temp as the company profile suggested..thanks

01-14-2011, 14:35	#109 (permalink)
monitron Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Netherlands Posts: 36 Member: 1242964 Status: Offline Thanks Meter: 5	This is a difficult chip to reball because of the low pitch and the 05mm balls. It has many functions integrated and when you have balls that have bridged or balls that didn't reflow correctly, in many cases the laptop won't start or switches on and after two seconds off. It could be that you touched a part that is near the bga and has moved. Look carefully. If not and you are careful with the max temp. you can take the chip off and try again. If you have not to much experience with reballing, it is better to start with GPU's that have .6mm balls.

01-15-2011, 16:51	#111 (permalink)
monitron Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Netherlands Posts: 36 Member: 1242964 Status: Offline Thanks Meter: 5	Hi, When the chip has popcorn it is useless and you have to replace it with an new one. You can buy them on Ebay. The popcorn appears when you overheat the chip (220-225 deg C max), or when your ramp-up is more then 2-3 deg C per second. It is always better to use leaded balls. The solder is more resistant against thermal and mechanical stress and you don't have to heat the chip higher then 175 - 175 deg C. I cannot see from a distance what the problem is with your board but what you know is that you reballed and reflowed the chip. So you have to look in that direction. Did you use hot-air or Infrared ?

01-15-2011, 19:25	#112 (permalink)
Trion Freak Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 370 Member: 44625 Status: Offline Thanks Meter: 36	@monitron, You have provided the correct info. I'd like to add that very few people have a good success rate with reballing/reflowing the NVIDIA MCP IC. This is mostly used in Acer 4520 laptops and most of them fail. Even the best people in rework that i know face problems with this chip. B.R.

01-19-2011, 19:27	#115 (permalink)
monitron Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Netherlands Posts: 36 Member: 1242964 Status: Offline Thanks Meter: 5	245 deg is really too high. For desoldering you can touch the bga with a tweezer when the temp is around 210 degrees. Push very soft until all the sides of the bga can move. Then remember the temp and adjust your profile. As soon as the chip is moving at all sides stop the process and start cooling. There is no need to let the temperature go higher as needed. A little flux can help. Use good flux because bad flux (like the fake amtech) can cause corrosion on the pads and that can make the reflow process fail. Reworking is like learning to walk all over again. You have to get used to your machine and get the feeling. It took me about one year and i learn every day. I don't use profiles but i operate the heaters manually. I use the software of the Jovy to plot a temperature curve. Practice on old boards, and write down what happens and then you make your own settings.

01-19-2011, 21:08	#116 (permalink)
ShadowmanX Freak Poster Join Date: Jul 2004 Age: 45 Posts: 298 Member: 71526 Status: Offline Thanks Meter: 48	No one "CHINA POWER killing chichuachua chiow chiow ayouououue" mashine canno't corectly solder/desolder chip U can reach temperature soldering/desoldering profile near to true.. but U never can repeat it on the same board 1) better look into some tools at price about 24k GBP or 29k EUR - it is nearest true 2) If U do not change broken chip - Your work is vain... 3) If chip's connection broken and U cannot resolder it correctly - Your work is vain... 4) If U do not resolve cooling and mechanical problem - Your work is vain... but U allways can do more cheaper than china sh.it and without knowledge about soldering "preheating, soak, reflow" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRHsXiRfl84 Good luck

01-20-2011, 15:00	#119 (permalink)
monitron Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Netherlands Posts: 36 Member: 1242964 Status: Offline Thanks Meter: 5	You can cover the parts that are near the GPU with kapton tape. Some people use aluminimum foil tape to protect other parts. More important is that you never exeed the max temp for that bga. (around 220 deg C). Good luck with practicing

01-22-2011, 08:56	#120 (permalink)
Nicpoe Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 15 Member: 1461747 Status: Offline Thanks Meter: 0	Look here, very interesting: YouTube - Reviving a Dead DELL Laptop with no Graphics (with Reballing service) But read the comments carefully. One user say that the chip is the problem, not the solder balls. And it's the second time i hear this. There are chips (manufactured 2008 and later) that are fixed. But where can I get those chips from nvidia. What Time code on the chip gives me the info about manufacturing date? Many of my fixed laptops fails after 1-4 Months again.